Posted: 19.08.09 15:04. Title: Color genetics

I think it would be very interesting to place Collies in the overall dog color genetics story. There were already some discussions on white dogs, so it should be a good subject to start. Sorry about my not-so-good English, I know I should probably find the original texts and paste them here... but this is shorter and easier...

Many white dogs - like Samoyed, Westie, Maltese etc... - are in fact genetically red dogs. Their eyes, eyelids and lips are always dark. They should not have trouble hearing, because (although they appear white) they don't lack pigmentation.
This has nothing to do with Collies, so let's move on...
photo courtesy of G. Barsh, Stanford
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/pathway.html

The melanocytes are migrating down from the neural crest derived cells along the spinal column and brain. Eyes and ears almost always have some pigment, and last places to recieve pigment cells are toes, chest, tip of tail, tip of nose...
Spotting gene roughly determines when will this migration stop. For example in Dogo Argentino it stops almost immediately, leaving the whole dog white. In Labradors it goes all the way, leaving maybe a small spot on the chest or toes. Collies are somewhere in between.
Besides the spotting gene, white markings are also influenced by external conditions. For example - if the mother has some sort of trauma in pregnancy that disrupted melanocyte migration, it can happen that puppies have more white markings than usual. That's why we can never predict exact amount of white markings some parents can give.

 Posted: 19.08.09 21:38. Title: Thanks Nina, that wa..

Thanks Nina, that was an excellent, condensed introduction to the genetic reason for dogs being white or partially white! . Just to think that the pure white samoyed genetically is a red dog... Fascinating! As well as knowing why it's usually the toes and the tip of the tail etc which is spotted white.

Berit

 Posted: 21.08.09 08:33. Title: One more interesting..

One more interesting fact... pigmentation spreading (mouse embryo picture) continues even after the puppy is born. Take a look at my smooth girl...



... notice how her white blaze narrowed with age. It's most apparent on her forehead, while the peripheral part (closer to her nose) changed very little.

Her sister is even more interesting...



She was born with lozenge - cute little sable spot in the middle of the white blaze. As she grows up, it merges with the rest and becomes almost impossible to detect. Notice that nose pigmentation closes some time after birth. It also has to do with pigmentation pathway.

 Posted: 21.08.09 21:52. Title: Thanks Nina - that e..

Thanks Nina - that explains a lot of things I have observed. For example, white factor - my girl Sadie is white factored. She has never had a white factored puppy. I was always careful to mate her with dogs who did not have too large a proportion of white in their markings. I don't know if I was just lucky or if scientifically what I did was right. For example, if I crossed two white factored dogs, would the offspring be white factored?
Note that some of the early smooth collie champions were white factored to a very high degree. This seems to have been bred out in time, whether by choice or accident, perhaps we will never know.
I haven't mastered the art of putting photos on the forum yet, but if no-one else does so in the meantime, will try to put an illustration in a later post. Dianne

 Posted: 22.08.09 09:33. Title: I've realised I ..

I've realised I don't need to put illustrations because, of course, thanks to the database, we have the Champions Gallery which is perhaps based on the Smooth Collie Club of Great Britain's 2002 book, smooth Collie Champions, 1884 to 2003.Which came first, the chicken or the egg, I am not sure. There have been extra dogs added to the Champion's Gallery.
http://foxearthcollies.co.uk/champions_gallery/championsgallery_index.htm
some white factored dogs to be found in the gallery are:
1898 Ithlingboro Village Boy
1902,Ithlingboro Village Lad
1907 Colet Lucy
1910 Stanley Wonder.
There are a number of other possible whilte factored dogs, but not so easy to spot on black and white photos. An extra-long white mark on the end of the tail or white running up the hind legs, shoulders white with white running down the front legs are signs.
Another interesting thing is that there were many more dogs with white blazes and noses (I personally think this is a pity this has disappeared to some extent because it is a distinguishing and attractive feature) and more dogs with little or no white collars.
Dianne

 Posted: 22.08.09 11:32. Title: Here is a picture of..

Here is a picture of one of my rough girls (VERY VERY VERY Out of coat) at about 18 months of age...



Everyone thing she is white factored, buts he is not. She just fakes it really well. She has no white or white factored dogs in her pedigree and neither parent is white factored, however both her parents had full white collars.

Now I LOVE large full white collars, and with the exception of a couple of my dogs, all of them have big full collars.... however I'm not a fan of blazes and while I've ever had a puppy with a full blaze, I doubt I would keep a puppy with one, if I got one in a litter.. however the little white star on their forehead I like.... or a tiny little stop of white on the end of the nose, I think is cute... I've gotten both on several puppies in the past.... jut not full blazes up the face.

 Posted: 22.08.09 14:16. Title: I remember reading s..

I remember reading somewhere about plus & minus modifiers - polygenes that vary the degree of a characteristic roughly determined by some major gene. Little said there are 4 main genes at spotting locus (solid color, irish spotting, piebald, extreme white), but we can distinguish many more degrees. That's because other genes at other loci (we don't know exactly which ones) also impact spotting... some of them reduce it, while the others increase it. Merle gene is said to be an example of modifier for spotting - it supposedly increases the amount of white.

I believe these modifiers + external conditions (like trauma in pregnancy) can explain Collies who look white factored, but in fact are not. I think today it's not so easy to find a real white factored Collie in European lines... like Dianne said, they're pretty much bred out. I must say I feel a little sad about that because I like them

About blazes... I believe white markings on head and body are inherited separately. Take for example Bobtails - white heads on colored bodies. On the other hand white American Collies usually have colored heads and white bodies. I tried to search some texts on white heads, but never found anything specific about the way of inheritance... I somehow doubt we can accurately predict blazes... maybe roughly, but seems like surprises are always possible.
If someone knows more, it would be great to read...

 Posted: 23.08.09 09:51. Title: I must disagree with..

I must disagree with you that white factored collies have been bred out of today's population. Maybe it is to some extent in many lines in the rough population, but not in the smooths. I see quite a lot of smooths who are white factored. Or they might not look it themselves but they give white factored pups . A much used and popular winning line from Sweden (used by most breeders in Europe) have the white factor present in its line. Also a full collar is a common accessory among smooths, but not among roughs, so generally I see much more white on the smooths than the roughs I see in the show ring. I remember something a Swedish breeder of roughs said (she is world renown for her beautiful roughs) and she is not afraid of using white factored dogs in her breeding. She does it knowingly because she wants the big, full white collars. Of course she sometimes gets a puppy that has too much white, but that's a small price to pay . Not all puppies in a litter are show prospects anyway. So not all breeders in Europe think the white factor is a dangerous liaison

Berit

 Posted: 23.08.09 11:20. Title: So not all breeders ..

quote:

So not all breeders in Europe think the white factor is a dangerous liaison

Glad to read this

I just wanted to say it's very difficult to determine a dog's actual genotype judging by its appearance... especially in the case of spotting, where many different modifiers can impact the final result.

It would be interesting to hear if anyone got a white pup (spotting white, not white merle) from European lines?

 Posted: 23.08.09 12:29. Title: however you can stil..

however you can still get full white collars, and white front legs etc... the "flash" white markings on a collie, without having a dog that is white factored..... I do not have white factored dogs, but with the exception of 2 of my dogs, all of the others (rough and smooth) and large full white collars, white legs etc..etc..etc.. and I do not have any white factored dogs.

The dog in the photo above I posted (Kelsey - rough tri) her mother and father both had full white collars... her sister (a smooth sable) as a full white collar.... and Kelsey's daughter (a rough sable) as a large full white collar... as does her granddaughter (also a rough sable).... large full white collars, with white front legs...

Color headed whites and/or white factored dogs have no health issues related to their color, however I am just not a fan of the family of dogs in the US that the white/white factored dogs come down from.... My dogs pedigrees are Parader based... if you go back far enough in the pedigrees....

 Posted: 23.08.09 12:54. Title: I know the full whit..

I know the full white collar is not directly linked to the white factor, but at least in Europe it seems the less white factored dogs you use the less full collars you see. Maybe it's just because some breeders alltogether avoid using collies with much white on them just to be on the safe side (as many are afraid of the white factor; beats me). Anyway, it is true that most smooths in Europe have the full white collars whereas it's not as common in the roughs.

Berit

 Posted: 23.08.09 22:53. Title: Oh I understand what..

Oh I understand what you are saying.....

A friend of mine who used to breed Collies, actually I purchased my foundation bitch from her several years ago. She had MANY MANY collies with almost no white collars what so ever... barely any white on their chest, just a small spot. She liked this.... my dogs are closely related to hers, as I said, I purchased my foundation bitch from her.... however my bitch had a big full white collar.. and I have maintained that with my own dogs, as I prefer the flashy white markings.

This is Hershey, one of the dogs bred by my friend... several years ago. This is the kind of markings most of her dogs had.. not all, but most. Her sire was a sable, that also had these same markings.


However this was my foundation bitch, Angie... who is CLOSELY related to Hershey, but thankfully has a huge full white color... Angie is pictured at 14 months of age. Angie is behind every dog I currently own.... I have her kids, grand kids, and Great Grand kids here now... she is Kelsey's dam (tri pictured above)... and they all have large full white collars like Angie!..

 Posted: 26.08.09 18:37. Title: Nina wrote: It woul..

Nina wrote:

quote:

It would be interesting to hear if anyone got a white pup (spotting white, not white merle) from European lines?

We have had a white puppy in our second litter.
Her parents are Whashishi's Fjurdy-Flora x Zap and it's done Fantazija. Tri x BM
This is a picture of her:

http://www.marakoopa.nl/foto/nestB/Baringa/2008-07-12%20Kyra%20rechts%20staan%20(1).jpg

Thats why this is a very interresting subjet for me.
No one can really tell me how it is that she is white.

Janet

I'm sorry, but can't get the picture right.
But you can see her on our site: http://www.marakoopa.nl/baringa.html

 Posted: 26.08.09 19:39. Title: Do you have pictures..

Do you have pictures of her parents??

This is very interesting because she really does not look like a white (color headed white) based on the markings on her head, she looks almost more like a double dilute.

Was she the only one in her litter like this?

If she is in fact a regular color headed white... then both her parents were obviously white factored whether they looked it or not. She is a very interesting dog though... and very pretty! I like her!

Another possibility is she being a Harlequin blue merle. I'll try to find some pictures, but in the states we have some bloodlines in blue merles, where they carry the harlequin merle gene and sometimes the blues are SOOO light in color, they almost look white.... with large black patches... sort of like harlequin danes.

 Posted: 26.08.09 20:00. Title: http://colliesofdeep..

Here are 3 pictures of Harlequin Blue Merles. They are NOT whites, none of their parents are white factored, there are several lines in the US that produce blue merles like this. These dogs are also NOT from two blue merle parents. When bred to a tri they will produce regular blue merles, harlequin blue merles and tris..

These dogs are owned/bred by different breeders I know...

I have a blue merle girl that is similar to the one in the last picture, as far as color goes.

 Posted: 26.08.09 20:15. Title: marakoopa It`s ..

marakoopa
It`s interesting!
Is this dog has no problem with vision or hearing? She looks more like white from bm * bm parents.
I know 2 cases of latent blue merle colour (in rough collies). In both cases dogs looked like usual tricolour, but genetically they were blue merle.

 Posted: 26.08.09 20:31. Title: Spiritwind wrote: D..

Spiritwind wrote:

quote:

Do you have pictures of her parents?? Was she the only one in her litter like this?

Her mother: http://www.marakoopa.nl/fjurdy.html
Her vader: http://members.chello.nl/c.berkelmans1/zap/index2.htm

She was the only one in our litter. http://www.marakoopa.nl/B%20nest.html

I had never heard of a harlequin blue-merle before. I don't know if she is a harlequin.
She doesn't really look like the pictures of the harlequin.

 Posted: 26.08.09 20:34. Title: that was olso the fi..

that was olso the first thing i was thinking ,that she look like a double dilute dog,mother is coming from a blue merle mother ,so it is possibel that there was a tiny small spot of merle ,but you can not know that now.
but that is just guessing!
we had two litters from this blue merle male who is the father of Marakoopa's bith and we have not much white in the litters.

 Posted: 26.08.09 20:36. Title: Natalain wrote: Is ..

Natalain wrote:

quote:

Is this dog has no problem with vision or hearing? She looks more like white from bm * bm parents.

No problem at all. Her vision and hearing are good.

If her mother is a latent blue merle that looks like a tri-colour, then we sould of had problems with her first litter.
She was mated to a sable dog and then we also would of had sable-merle.
This is not the case.
So I don't believe that Fjurdy is a latent BM.

Janet

 Posted: 26.08.09 20:46. Title: marakoopa I`m g..

marakoopa
I`m glad that she havn`t problems with vision and hearing! It`s good!

But... Really interesting why she is white...
I understand that you don`t believe that Fjurdy is a latent BM. But.. I have seen in your homepage that her 1st litter consisted from 4 puppies, 3 tricolour and one sable isn`t it? Statistically it is not enough for be sure, I think.
IF Fjurdy was my brood bitch I will mate her next time with tricolour male and see the results...

 Posted: 26.08.09 21:07. Title: marakoopa wrote: He..

marakoopa wrote:

quote:

Her mother: http://www.marakoopa.nl/fjurdy.html Her vader: http://members.chello.nl/c.berkelmans1/zap/index2.htm She was the only one in our litter. http://www.marakoopa.nl/B%20nest.html

Very interesting because neither of her parents look white factored. It is possible that they are, but just don't look it! Very interesting! But the puppy really doesn't look like a color headed white either, with all that white on her head, MOST color headed whites don't have that much white on their heads. She really does look more like a double dilute/double merle and I still think harlequin could be possible... though it doesn't sound likely.


marakoopa wrote:

quote:

If her mother is a latent blue merle that looks like a tri-colour, then we sould of had problems with her first litter. She was mated to a sable dog and then we also would of had sable-merle. This is not the case. So I don't believe that Fjurdy is a latent BM.

Not a guarantee. I know people who have bred blue merle x blue merle and not had ONE problem with any of the puppies.

Also as far as sable merles, I have done three sable x blue merle breedings and I have only ever gotten 1 sable merle puppy.

I don't know if they have the DNA tests in Europe, but in the US and Canada they do have DNA tests to determine the genetic color of a Collie. It would be interesting to have this puppy DNA tested to find out what color she is genetically!

 Posted: 26.08.09 21:18. Title: any pictures of her ..

any pictures of her body? she really just looks like a mismark merle to merle to me. We have roughs with white body markings (white factors). On the weekend just gone I saw a Rough merle with a similar amount of white face marking and half her showside white splashed but she was definately a merle.

I have never hears of a Harlequin either.

Cheers Kate

 Posted: 26.08.09 21:35. Title: carluke wrote: I ha..

carluke wrote:

quote:

I have never hears of a Harlequin either.

There are only a select few bloodlines in the US and Canada that have TRUE harlequin blue merles. Actually the pictures I posted above are 3 generations of harlequins. Grand Mother, Mother and Daughter.

There is already DNA tests on Collies in the US to test to see what coat color they are genetically, last I heard they were currently working on a DNA test for harlequin to see if its TRUE harlequin (like in danes) or just a different shade of blue merle.

Info on the Harlequin gene in Danes:

"Harlequin is a completely unique modifying gene which affects only dogs with the merle gene. It turns the areas between the dark patches into pure white (occasionally with some grey ticking or patches). This means a blue (black) merle will become white with black patches, because all the grey in its coat is turned to white. What is even more interesting about this gene is that it also affects phaeomelanin (red), not just eumelanin (black, liver, blue, isabella) like other merle modifiers. That means that a sable dog with the merling gene won't just be affected on the parts of its coat that are black (tipping, mask etc), but the whole of the coat will be harlequin. It will become what is known as a "fawnequin" - tan (sable) patches on a white base, with black patches where it would have shown black merling. The patches on the fawn section of the dog are located where the dog would have had black patches if it had been a solid blue (black) merle."

From what I understand, this "harlequin" coloring in Collies just sort of happens. You can breed a regular blue merle to a tri-color and get some puppies that look harlequin, and some that look like regular blue merles and you can breed a harlequin blue merle to a tri-color and get regular blue merles...

 Posted: 27.08.09 06:00. Title: carluke wrote: any ..

carluke wrote:

quote:

any pictures of her body? she really just looks like a mismark merle to merle to me. We have roughs with white body markings (white factors). On the weekend just gone I saw a Rough merle with a similar amount of white face marking and half her showside white splashed but she was definately a merle

I will look for some pictures of her just born. But still have to find out how to place them here.

 Posted: 27.08.09 09:50. Title: hee janet dat is hi..

hee janet
dat is hier gemakkelijk ,zie je die icoontje hierboven ,dan zie je een mannetje daar op klikken en dan kun je een foto selecteren uit je eigen bestand ,dan uploaden ,staat wel in het russisch,dan zie je allerlei url van de foto en daar je er een van gebruiken ,het beste is diegene die begint en eindigt met IMG.
snap je het?
ik gebruik deze ook voor ons eigen forum ,erg handig


i was just telling how to put the photo's here!

 Posted: 27.08.09 13:15. Title: http://www.mijnalbum..

Pictures of the puppy, I hope you can see them.

Spiritwind wrote:

quote:

don't know if they have the DNA tests in Europe, but in the US and Canada they do have DNA tests to determine the genetic color of a Collie. It would be interesting to have this puppy DNA tested to find out what color she is genetically!

To test the puppy I will have to ask the owners. I don't know if they want to test her.
But I am thinking about testing my bitch. If she really is tri-colour of geneticly blue-merle.

Janet

 Posted: 27.08.09 14:03. Title: Hello to all, My na..

Hello to all,

My name is Mariska and I am the owner of the blue merle male Zap and It's Done Fantazija and I think that he does not have the white factor we are talking about. His other litters show no sign of it. That is why Marakoopa's Baringa is so interesting.
You can see puppies from the other litters if you use this link: http://members.chello.nl/c.berkelmans1/zap/offspring.htm

Greetings,
Mariska

 Posted: 27.08.09 14:40. Title: marakoopa wrote: To..

marakoopa wrote:

quote:

To test the puppy I will have to ask the owners. I don't know if they want to test her. But I am thinking about testing my bitch. If she really is tri-colour of geneticly blue-merle.

I think its a good idea to test your bitch. You just never know. I have seen some "cryptic" blue merles, that are VERY hard tell are blue merles, except for a very small spot of merle hidden somewhere. IF she comes back as a tri-color though, I personally would test the puppy, just to know! I would want to know, because she really does not look like a color headed white at all. She looks like a double dilute.


Mariska wrote:

quote:

Done Fantazija and I think that he does not have the white factor we are talking about. His other litters show no sign of it.

I agree.. I don't think either parent of this puppy looks white factored, though I do know of someone who has a white factored dog who does not appear white factored-- no white on the legs, and a broken collar. She did the color DNA test and it was proven through there it was a white factored. However since none of the other puppies sired by your dog look white factored, I doubt he is!




The dogs above are Double Dilutes




These are Color headed whites

 Posted: 27.08.09 16:45. Title: Hello to you all, M..

Hello to you all,

My name is Mariska and I am the owner of the blue merle male Zap and It's Done Fantazija. I doubt he is white factored. I believe he is not.

He has given 3 other litters and none of his other offspring looks white factored. In the two litters in the Mabinogion kennel some dogs have very little white. The offspring in the Midden Aarde kennel has a bit more white, but not as much as Midden Aarden dogs often have.......
If you look at the Marakoopa kennel's pages you can see a brother of Baringa who nearly has not any white in his coat (Marakoopa's Bykool).
Fjurdy's offspring do not look like they are white factoren either, I think.....
You can see Zap's offspring if you use this link: http://members.chello.nl/c.berkelmans1/zap/offspring.htm

Could it be that Baringa is just a case of "nature doing it's own thing"? I don't know....

I would like to hear your opinions!

Mariska

 Posted: 27.08.09 18:27. Title: OOPS SORRY! I though..

OOPS SORRY! I thought my first message did not came through so I posted a similar one
Sorry

Mariska

 Posted: 27.08.09 19:08. Title: Strange colour

Hi all, I saw this very interesting topic and I would like to ask about my puppy - Anamur Grenay.
She is like tricolour, but not black.
Some pictures after born on my website - http://www.grenay.cz/odchovy/a/a_9.4.08.html

Here you can find pictures from her 1 year celebration:
http://vanourek-bordercollie.cz/smecka_2009/skoleni_kolie_18.4.2009.htm (this is all pictures of whole litter and my little Lili)

here is direct her pictures:
http://img3.rajce.idnes.cz/d6/1/1948/1948227_260ceab53eb91cc931572577310eaae2/images/kolie_18.4.2009_31.jpg
http://img3.rajce.idnes.cz/d6/1/1948/1948227_260ceab53eb91cc931572577310eaae2/images/kolie_18.4.2009_32.jpg
http://img3.rajce.idnes.cz/d6/1/1948/1948227_260ceab53eb91cc931572577310eaae2/images/kolie_18.4.2009_14.jpg

I discussed about it with many people, but noone know how it is caused. She is from blm x tric mating, her mother is tricolour (after blm x tric parents). I got some ideas from other people like that she is cryptic tricolour, or that she has grey collie syndrom or some liver problem. But grey collie syndrom should looks other in puppy age, for liver problem she has vet examination and there is no problem, about cryptic tricolour I don't know what it is.
Now I plan to mate my girl (mother of this strange coloured puppy) with tricolour boy.

Do you know about some laboratory in Europe, where is possible to test DNA for knowing true colour of her?

 Posted: 27.08.09 20:35. Title: Nelson wrote: Hi a..

Nelson wrote:

quote:

Hi all, I saw this very interesting topic and I would like to ask about my puppy - Anamur Grenay. She is like tricolour, but not black.

Very interesting. I will say that your dog does not have gray collie syndrome, there is a test for this available now, so you could test just to make sure, but collies with gray collie syndrome do not look like your dog, plus they don't typically survive to adult hood.

You should check out info on the "Maltese Blue" Its VERY rare but has been known to pop up here and there. It dilutes the black of a tri-color to a similar color as your dog.

Here is a link related to the "Maltese Blue" coloring in shelties.

Maltese Blue Color

This coloring was talked about a lot on another collie forum I go to. I have to leave for work in a few minutes but I'll write more later on.

Here is info on Gray Collie Syndrome. To my knowledge there is only one Gray Collie Syndrome Collie who has survived to adulthood and that was due to her being sent to a be part of a university medical research lab, where they were working on a treatment for a similar disease seen in people... but the dog was was basically cured of the disease and now lives in normal happy pet life...

Gray Collie Syndrome

Without this treatment she would have died....

As far as a cryptic tri-color.. to my knowledge there is no such thing.

 Posted: 28.08.09 11:07. Title: Spiritwind Wow, tha..

Spiritwind
Wow, thank you very much, it looks really really like that our Anamur is maltese blue, when I saw the pictures of sheltie puppy that's it. And the signs, which are there written....it is 100%right - she is whole body same coloured, she has ligther eyes, but not with blue, more browngreen, and her nose is dark but not absolutely black. Great, so I think the mystery after more then one year is unriddled
Thank you very much and I would be really gratefull if you put here more information about it (or to my email - info@grenay.cz). Thank you!!!

 Posted: 28.08.09 16:41. Title: Very interesting top..

Very interesting topic!
Now speaking of shelties.. I have once seen a really black tricoulour sheltie, that showed no signs of a blue merle colouring anywhere in his body, but one of his eyes was light blue and it had always been like that. Unfortunately I can't remember if he was from a blm - tri mating or if one or both his parents were bi-coloured. But he surely looked interesting! Do you think that the sheltie could've been cryptic?

 Posted: 28.08.09 17:57. Title: MacGee´s wrote: Now..

MacGee´s wrote:

quote:

Now speaking of shelties.. I have once seen a really black tricoulour sheltie, that showed no signs of a blue merle colouring anywhere in his body, but one of his eyes was light blue and it had always been like that.

I doubt he was a cryptic, but its certainly possible. Shelties do have a bit more colors that pop up every once in a while, than Collies do. Probably because of the other breeds used to develop the shetland sheepdog.

Some sheltie breeders I know had a litter earlier this year that was all sables, BUT had one sable puppy with 1 blue eye. It was NOT a sable merle. Both parents were Pure for sable, sables... I really have no idea what it was, or how it happens, but this dog had no merle in him.

I know in Border Collies, you can get black and white BC's with blue eyes as well, that have no merle in them.

 Posted: 31.08.09 20:02. Title: Nelson wrote: Thank..

Nelson wrote:

quote:

Thank you very much and I would be really gratefull if you put here more information about it (or to my email - info@grenay.cz). Thank you!!!

Nelson, here is more info on the Maltese color http://www.ashgi.org/color/dilute_aussies.htm as seen in Aussies.

One of the Collie e-mail lists I'm on, people are actually talking about Maltese and Harlequin coloring. Someone just posted a picture of their rough sable merle, that appears to be a harlequin sable merle. This person says they also have some Maltese tri-colors, described looking very much like your boy in the photos above...

 Posted: 13.09.09 15:34. Title: Back online... :sm12..

Back online...
http://koti.mbnet.fi/cesamen/omamansikki.html

Here is one possible theory on harlequin inheritance...
http://home.rcsis.com/daneaffr/colinher.html

We can't know if it's 100% true, but I believe harlequin gene(s) can "hide" in non-merle dogs, and show up when combined with merle. That would probably mean Kyra got it from her mother's side. Theoretically, some of her tricolor siblings and half-siblings from Fjurdy's first litter could produce the same color when mated to merle.

quote:

Now speaking of shelties.. I have once seen a really black tricoulour sheltie, that showed no signs of a blue merle colouring anywhere in his body, but one of his eyes was light blue and it had always been like that.

It might be spotting... especially if there is a wide blaze on the head. I also know a few Borders with blue eyes and no merles in pedigree for generations... this one for example.



http://bordercollie.pedigre.net/details.php?id=947

I think in this case spotting is a good explanation, but if there is no white blaze it's probably something else... maybe the same gene that causes Husky eyes to be blue...? I don't know much about it, but sounds possible...

 Posted: 15.09.09 09:34. Title: Nina, the sheltie I ..

Nina, the sheltie I was talking about earlier didn't have a blaze. Wish I had taken a photo of him!

 Posted: 15.09.09 11:15. Title: Then it's someth..

Then it's something else. Maybe it's really the same thing as in Huskies...? Huskies are all non-merle dogs, usually with very little white spotting (most of their white parts are not spotting, it's tan + phaeomelanin dilution... something like Samoyed... skin is fully pigmented). Their eyes are blue thanks to the separate gene, not related to coat color.

Here is an excellent website where you can read more
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/eyes.htm

 Posted: 15.09.09 15:35. Title: MacGee´s wrote: Nin..

MacGee´s wrote:

quote:

Nina, the sheltie I was talking about earlier didn't have a blaze. Wish I had taken a photo of him!

Nina wrote:

quote:

Then it's something else. Maybe it's really the same thing as in Huskies...? Huskies are all non-merle dogs, usually with very little white spotting (most of their white parts are not spotting, it's tan + phaeomelanin dilution... something like Samoyed... skin is fully pigmented). Their eyes are blue thanks to the separate gene, not related to coat color. Here is an excellent website where you can read more http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/eyes.htm

As I said above a while back, I do believe shelties have some other gene that can change eye color. Sheltie breeders/handlers I work for had a all sable (NON Merle) litter earlier this year and one puppy had a blue eye. These puppies were NOT merles, matter fact both parents were pure for sables... from a long line of sables.

As far as border collies go, I have seen solid black border collies with blue eyes. It really doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the white blaze on the dogs face...

 Posted: 16.09.09 04:03. Title: And yes... from ever..

And yes... from everything I have read, Harlequin pattern is ONLY expressed in merled dogs, however non-merled dogs can carry the gene for it.

 Posted: 16.09.09 21:59. Title: My Miss has no white..

My Miss has no white collar, so am very interested to see what comes up in the litter I am hoping she will have around the New Year. Her half brother. Black, has only a half white collar and his recent litter of 11 puppies at Blue Angel Dreams all had full white collars - you just never know. Black is out of Whashishi's Gideon who also has a full white collar.
The mystery of the very pretty puppy at Marakoopa's is fascinating - perhaps the reason that we don't see more dogs like this is that they don't get used in breeding. There are some very strongly white factored dogs which can be seen in Smooth Collie Champions which can be accessed from this forum - for example, Stanley Wonder, champion in 1910, but there are fewer and fewer such dogs as time goes on - breeders must have decided to breed this factor out. Thee same is true for lack of white collar - it is now quite rare.
I feel that this puppy is not a double dilute merle.
Dianne

 Posted: 21.09.09 06:00. Title: Dianne Whashishi&#..

Dianne

Whashishi's Gideon has only half collar, from left side, from right side he is black:)) You can see it here:
http://www.grenay.cz/plany/2010/b/otec/obr3.jpg
http://www.grenay.cz/plany/2010/b/otec/obr4.jpg

 Posted: 30.09.09 16:53. Title: Hi Pavla - thanks fo..

Hi Pavla - thanks for correcting me and thanks for the photos of beautiful Gideon - I hope Black is like his father. He has certainly inherited his strong bone structure and compact form which I love very much. So now I realise he has also inherited his half white collar.
Dianne