Posted: 05.12.10 08:56. Title: What are you breeding for ?

How about bringing some life in this forum?
More and more I read on homepages: We are breeding for work or sport or show or health and so on.....
Should our aim in breeding not be: We want it all !
The Smooth Collie is meant to be a versatile dog in all aspects, alert, active, happy, healthy and beautiful !
So, at the risk of beeing stoned, I ask you: What are you breeding for?

 Posted: 05.12.10 13:59. Title: I have already writt..

I have already written my thought at this forum.

More and more smooth collies are NOT healthy and no one seems to care, dogs die young in cancer, epilepsy, autoimmundiseases and still there near relativs are used for breeding, nice showwinners and than these dogs are linebreed on, why???

One breeder put her litter on the homepage and 5 of 8 in the litter has epilepsy, their close relativs has been some of the topwinning dogs in the showring AND is now linebreed on, what happens when these dogs are behind ALL smoothcollies??

Same with other thing, I got a young bitch with bloodcancer, she was one year old, I asked other breeders about it and NO ONE had a dog that died in cancer, but as late as this week a close relativ to this bitch died in the same, but this is not something to care about or?

Feels like some people think it's ok that dogs dies 1-5 years old, I don't think that I'm used to have my dogs longer than that 10-15 years, so what is going to happen to this breed in the furture if people dosen't care?

Here we have another thing, our MH mental description, if the dogs doesn't get the right marking at THAT most important paper they are useless.

I want a HEALTHY. EASY GOING & LOVELY smooth that lives a long life!!

When I look at pedigrees It seems that most breeders likes to do nearly the same combinations that all other breeders already have done, easy way to get nice showwinners or??

Like Skalle Per that I owned he got 38 puppies in GB, his daughers who was exported and the ones who still is in GB was all used to son's to Oklahoma Oliwer, why? so now these are behind lots of dogs around Europe, dogs with nearly the same background...

Per was sterile young, what happens with all these dogs that are linebreed to him in th future??

You Gudrun told me that my Errol Flynn was sensitive to ivermectin, but he was a HEALTHY dog until he died 13 years old, MDR1 test ok, but these drugs is something you can avoid, I think other things are more important than that.

I hope there will be better test for epilepsy, cancer & autoimmusdiseases instead!

 Posted: 05.12.10 16:06. Title: Jeanette, I go confo..

Jeanette, I go conform with you, but - who will ever tell that there are problems in their breeding stock?
The overall is more important than just details - this does not include severe problems like the ones you mentioned.

We all hope for long lives for our dogs - as we also do for people we love - but things like cancer or immune mediated diseases occur in humans too and spread more and more. Remember, I lost Al due to cancer, but I also lost my father, all grandparents, cousins due to cancer - I am still alive, so are my brothers and sister and I have children..........

As for breeding with decendants of Per and Otto - well, they were great individuals, we just shouldn't double it up, outcrossing is the future - even if we do not know what will come from it - no clones, that's for sure.

About dogs dying young - often we do not know why. Was it an accident, poisoning? On my memory page I do not mention the cause of the death because I do not want to hurt the owners, maybe others do like that too?

 Posted: 05.12.10 22:08. Title: If and old dog that ..

If and old dog that lived a good life dies in cancer, I don't think that's the same as an 1 year old dog does.

The same with older dogs that get sick before they die, that's normal in my eyes, but dog 1-5 years old is not normal, especially not if they comes from same bloodlines...

Sorry, but I think to many breeders stick their heads in the sand.

 Posted: 10.12.10 14:49. Title: I agree with what yo..

I agree with what you are both saying - breeders must take much more into consideration, not just show quality. First of all we must remember that this is a dog, our best friend and companion, that should be able to live a long, healthy and productive life with us, and be able to do with us everything, from sport to sleeping on the sofa, to be happy and loving and interested in learning, and all the things we want in our dearest companions, for many years. This means intelligence, stable temperament, loving and devoted nature, health, and soundness. Then of course I want my dog to be beautiful - and there is no reason that a dog can't have all of these qualities together, if we concentrate on breeding for them. It is all up to us and the decisions that we make.

 Posted: 01.01.11 22:20. Title: Without a health dat..

Without a health data bank young breeders like me have no chance to know many of those things. There are lots of rumors - but do we really want more of those????

 Posted: 13.01.11 19:54. Title: Maybe you forget - w..

Maybe you forget - we already have a database!
But unfortunately not everybody uses this great possibility of sharing important information.
many dogs are not in the database, many profiles are not being updates by the dogs owners or breeders.
if a case of cancer or epilepsy occurs in a dog, shouldn't this be mentioned in the databaes by owner or breeder?
this would help a lot - especially since you can see the offspring of a dog here that you may be interested in for breeding and if health results would be kept up to date, it would be easy to see what dog gets lost of illnesses in his/her offspring and in combination with wich lines this happens...

and as Woodchack said: as a young breeder it is absolutely impossible to get good and trustworthy information about all the lines and dogs and breeders...

 Posted: 13.01.11 23:16. Title: :sm44: Lisa wrote..

Lisa wrote:

quote:

if a case of cancer or epilepsy occurs in a dog, shouldn't this be mentioned in the databaes by owner or breeder?

The Smooth Collie Database is full of all sorts health information concerning each dog *only if these infos are mentioned somewhere within the breeder/owner website*.
From the Database, I have done and regularly update my own list of Smooth Collie litters in which there is (are) non-healthy puppies. By "non-healthy" I mean CEA and all sorts of eyes diseases affected, hips (under "B") & elbows scores, heart problems, epilepsy, all sorts of abnormalies, etc... Well, everything going wrong in a pup. I list them with their healthy littermates, not forgetting to indicate the parents.
My list currently contains 1661 lines of both healthy (as much as I can know) and non-healthy for one or more disease(s) puppies/adults. Of course, I can only list the Smooths that there is something mentioned about his health records. I let apart those whose nothing is mentioned (show results only don't interest me).
It also contains 34 columns of different diseases/abmornalies.
I have to say that I did not take under consideration the MDR1 status to establish my list for the obvious reason that if I did it my list would simply be empty !

For coming back to the initial question : I first breed to the Standard.
At least, I do my best for always having the Standard in mind when I decide for a litter. I *know* my bitches, I *know* the lines behind, I *know* what Type I want and I *know* what is the Perfect Collie (as much as it can be). A Collie bred to the Standard is a Collie supposed to be useful and healthy.
Right after I take eyes & hips healthes in consideration. As the Collie is a shepherd breed, the most important things are the dogs *must have* clear eyes for a good sight in any situation and normal hips for doing his job all day long without any trouble.

After years of reflexion, it appears to me that MDR1 defect is not a healthy concern in itself, dogs are living quite normally, BUT an homozygous affected Collie is quite a nightmare to care. A simple diarrhea can not be easily solved with any medication, without to speak about more severe diseases to treat. I have thus to take this (ultimate ?) point into consideration but certainly not at all costs, certainly not in sacrifying to the Standard.

As for the other health points.... I do my best for breeding good puppies but I have no crystal ball, I am not a divine, I am quite unable to say in advance what will happen in the future. I am honest toward my prospects, if the puppy develops a trouble while he is at my kennel I will tell it. But after having left my kennel in good health, I can't predict anything. Way of life and Mother Nature are hand in hand to determine how the puppy will be.

Best regards,
Françoise

 Posted: 15.01.11 18:19. Title: True, it is not easy..

True, it is not easy, often impossible to know every health problem that may arise in an individual dog or line. Hopefully there will develop a climate in the future where more and more breeders feel comfortable publishing the health results of their litters, not just hip/elbows, eyes or MDR1 results but also things like allergies, cancer, epilepsy etc. Lots of praise to the breeders who are already doing it on their websites, hopefully more and more breeders will follow.

But even if we could get a better overview of the health and genetic diseases in the smooth population I hope the breeders use the information wisely. It might not be wise to exclude whole families or lines from breeding to avoid a certain disease; this is dangerous in a breed with a small gene pool as it is. For cancer in the family may not be an argument for not using a studdog especially if the mating is an outbreeding it may still be relatively safe. No smooth family or line is completely free of problems or disease, the challenge for the breeder is to combine them wisely.

 Posted: 29.03.11 21:31. Title: The problem is that ..

The problem is that many dogs develop diseases late in life after they have bred several litters

 Posted: 21.04.11 13:58. Title: Just to digress slightly.......

Does anyone know if there is/are any genetically clear smooths in GB> My eye specialist asked me this question this week when I was having my latest litter tested.
He said he expected all this litter to be clear as this seemed to be becoming the norm with my stock... :-)

Also, a couple of yrs ago I bred a lovely bitch. Sold her on and at less than a year old she developed various problems which took a deal of time,effort and money to come to a conclusion with for her new owners. Eventually, after guesses at various diseases including Lupus, the final word was...IMMATURE KIDNEYS.... and sadly she had to be pts at around 2+ yrs. Heartbreaking.
Has anyone ever had this/heard of this in smooths (or any other breed)

 Posted: 21.04.11 13:58. Title: Just to digress slightly.......

Does anyone know if there is/are any genetically clear smooths in GB> My eye specialist asked me this question this week when I was having my latest litter tested.
He said he expected all this litter to be clear as this seemed to be becoming the norm with my stock... :-)

Also, a couple of yrs ago I bred a lovely bitch. Sold her on and at less than a year old she developed various problems which took a deal of time,effort and money to come to a conclusion with for her new owners. Eventually, after guesses at various diseases including Lupus, the final word was...IMMATURE KIDNEYS.... and sadly she had to be pts at around 2+ yrs. Heartbreaking.
Has anyone ever had this/heard of this in smooths (or any other breed)

 Posted: 21.04.11 13:58. Title: Just to digress slightly.......

Does anyone know if there is/are any genetically clear smooths in GB> My eye specialist asked me this question this week when I was having my latest litter tested.
He said he expected all this litter to be clear as this seemed to be becoming the norm with my stock... :-)

Also, a couple of yrs ago I bred a lovely bitch. Sold her on and at less than a year old she developed various problems which took a deal of time,effort and money to come to a conclusion with for her new owners. Eventually, after guesses at various diseases including Lupus, the final word was...IMMATURE KIDNEYS.... and sadly she had to be pts at around 2+ yrs. Heartbreaking.
Has anyone ever had this/heard of this in smooths (or any other breed)

 Posted: 21.04.11 13:58. Title: Just to digress slightly.......

Does anyone know if there is/are any genetically clear smooths in GB> My eye specialist asked me this question this week when I was having my latest litter tested.
He said he expected all this litter to be clear as this seemed to be becoming the norm with my stock... :-)

Also, a couple of yrs ago I bred a lovely bitch. Sold her on and at less than a year old she developed various problems which took a deal of time,effort and money to come to a conclusion with for her new owners. Eventually, after guesses at various diseases including Lupus, the final word was...IMMATURE KIDNEYS.... and sadly she had to be pts at around 2+ yrs. Heartbreaking.
Has anyone ever had this/heard of this in smooths (or any other breed)

 Posted: 21.04.11 14:16. Title: Back to What are you breeding for.......

I have been breeding smooths for over 30 yrs. I hope (and I try) to breed healthy, happy, well adjusted individuals that will live primarily with families...and then maybe go on to agility/obedience/working in various 'jobs' ie. PAT dogs/Assistance dogs/search and rescue dogs/sheep herders....but most of all to be the most fantastic companion for any family/individual for hopefully 10/15 problem free years.
I'm very honest about any problems I encounter and would dearly love everyone to discuss these problems because in the end it will surely benefit our wonderful breed ???
We must always put the dogs first.
See item above and sorry but it seems to have an echo and appeared 4 times....not good at this yet!!!

 Posted: 21.04.11 21:49. Title: Hi Pat - you can hav..

Hi Pat - you can have a look at the british Smoothies in the Smoothie Database to check for CEA non-carriers in GB.
If you would have your stock genetically tested you would know what to expect from the puppies.
As we meintioned in some other threads, the clinical eye checks are more than unrelyable....

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