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Post Number: 141
Joined on: 31.08.07
Location: Nederland , Dordrecht
post link  Posted: 04.04.09 14:05. Title: epilepsie ?


in many breeds there is epilepsie ,now i wonder ,are there smooth who have epilepsie?
and yes ,what are the rules in every country for breeding?
i have heard from some epilepsie in germany and finland ,but are these incidents or do you see it more often in the smooth collie?




the smoothcollie ,the biggest friend you can get!!
bye Jolanda


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Post Number: 28
Joined on: 24.05.08
Location: Finland , Tampere
post link  Posted: 28.07.09 16:42. Title: I am also very inter..


I am also very interested in this subject, so I decided to make this old thread alive. I hope this subject is not a taboo for Smoothie enthusiastics because this kind of illness is quite a big problem for a single dog - bigger than CEA for example.



http://allegorysmooths.net/
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Post Number: 143
Joined on: 31.08.07
Location: Nederland , Dordrecht
post link  Posted: 29.07.09 11:55. Title: yes ,i think so to. ..


yes ,i think so to.
i heard about some smooth who got epilepsie and i was wonder how offen it is seen in our breed.
i olso know that epilepsie olso is a symptom of many other kind of ilness ofcourse ,but i think it is always good to be allert of this kind of things when you breed.


the smoothcollie ,the biggest friend you can get!!
bye Jolanda


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Post Number: 66
Joined on: 31.07.07
Location: Germany , D-72488 Sigmaringen
post link  Posted: 29.07.09 12:41. Title: I do not think it is..


I do not think it is a tabu - or should be, I just do not know any smooth who had epilepsie.
I have heard rumours of some very early smooth having had epilepsie but no proof.
There was a litter in Finland where almost all puppies were said to have had it and were put to sleep.
But we can not discuss rumours here in this forum........

From what I have heard there are also ilnesses that can be miss-interpreted to be epi ???



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Post Number: 67
Joined on: 02.09.07
Location: Norway
post link  Posted: 29.07.09 12:51. Title: Epileptic seizures a..


Epileptic seizures are not an easy ailment to take into consideration for breeders as not all seizures are hereditary (dogs may get seizures from a bump to the head in an accident or during birth etc). There are also seizures that looks like epilectic ones but are caused by other diseases. And it is often very difficult for the veterinary to establish whether a dog's epileptic-looking seizures are hereditary or not.

I've heard of some cases of (epileptic?) seizures in smooth collies, but I wouldn't say there are many. My impression is that immune deficiencies/allergies or cancer is more common among smooths than epilepsy.

A dog that one suspects of having epilepsy should of course not be used for breeding. But the breed is so small genetically that I suspect it would be very difficult to avoid using any relatives for breeding alltogether, it depends how closely related they are I guess. Generally one should try to avoid line or inbreeding so as not to double the chances of getting more hereditary epileptic cases.

Berit

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Post Number: 9
Joined on: 28.08.07
Location: Finland , Kotka
post link  Posted: 30.07.09 07:09. Title: Epilepsy is tricky t..


Epilepsy is tricky thing, since similar symptoms can be caused of many things. If no other reason for seizures cannot be found, one has to be aware that it may be epilepsy -heriditary kind.

"Common recommendations" are that the combination that has produced epilectic dog should not be done again and that the littermates of the sick dog should not be used.

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Post Number: 49
Joined on: 31.08.07
Location: Sweden , Kumla
post link  Posted: 12.04.10 17:16. Title: Easy to say that the..


Easy to say that the dogs who had epilepsy is rumours...

You have epileptic dogs behind your own breeding Mabinogion, but maybe you are lucky to have healthy dogs so far.

One breeder has written about the dogs from her breeding that had epilepsy, litter of 8 puppies and as I can see 5 of the have epilepsy, a rumour? close relativs to these dogs are behind many dogs today.

I know about more dogs who had epilepsy, my friend had one and another dog in the same litter had ep, from that litter was a male used... and is behind lots of dogs.

A breeder imported dogs from UK, many years ago - they had ep, their littermate was used in Germany and is now behind one dog that I just saw was epileptic...

2 of the dogs I know had ep here in Sweden born in the early -80 got it when the where around 1 years old, these dogs where put to sleep, but their littermates was used.

What happens in the future when these dogs will be linebreed?? when ep in smooths doesn't excist more than in my brain...



/Jeanette
www.oneways.net
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Post Number: 2
Joined on: 04.04.10
post link  Posted: 12.04.10 20:30. Title: It would be so good ..


It would be so good to know more about the known epileptic dogs or lines. But maybe the breeders are keeping it as a secret? Or is there a possibility to know more? It's really frightening that you might linebreed to them or with them, because you just did not get the info. It is not good for the breed to keep it in secret...

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Post Number: 35
Joined on: 24.05.08
Location: Finland , Tampere
post link  Posted: 13.04.10 06:28. Title: About health problem..


About health problems in general:

I know that what I'm going to suggest now is very bold, somebody might say even improper. But I'm dreaming of a Collie world where the breeders put also all the negative things and possible health problems of their dogs to their own website. I have done so (even though it might look bad), and I have received very nice feedback. I'm challenging everybody with a website to tell about their problems (with health and with character, too) for the best of our breed.



http://allegorysmooths.net/
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Post Number: 207
Joined on: 13.04.08
Location: Austria , Vienna
post link  Posted: 13.04.10 10:56. Title: I think, just like ..



I think, just like you said, that it should be told from what lines we can expect epi.
I would love to know if such dogs are in the pedigree of my own smooth, for example, or in the lines of dogs that are now used for breding...
these informations are nowhere visible if you look for it and this makes it extremely difficult to choose a healthy course in breeding.
As my dog is partly out of commonly used lines, i would love to know if these lines are suspected to carry epi.
but I also fear that many breeders would not make it public if one of their dogs suffer from epi.

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Post Number: 3
Joined on: 04.04.10
post link  Posted: 13.04.10 14:04. Title: Yes, and there will ..


Yes, and there will be a huge problem in some years in the breed if the serious health problems remain hidden from the responsible breeders. If by chance, you have a healthy bitch now and you know which dog or line is also healthy, free from any serious deseases, you could just start to breed healthy stocks. Healthy dogs should be the future and which are good for the breed! But this way? What can happen? There will be no healthy lines in some years. Maybe there is not now any, anymore.

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Post Number: 151
Joined on: 31.08.07
Location: Nederland , Dordrecht
post link  Posted: 13.04.10 16:27. Title: To Oneway's Firs..


To Oneway's
First of all let me say that i really resent the fingerpointing u r doing in your post, it is not why i posted here and u should be careful with that when posting. Would rather u use more private channels to get personal info across.

Secondly thank u for the information offered , u are one of the few who dare say something about it and ofcourse i agree that breeders must be more open about health things, it is one of the reasons i made this post besides just wanting to know more about epilepsy

There are smooth litters born with epileptic dogs in them all over europe some of them i know of .

what i know about epilepsie is ,that it dont come from one parent ,if the dogs are healty and NOT have epi and they give offspring who have epi (and then you still not sure if it is primair of secundair)
the parenst both are carrier for this .

so ,if there are offspring with epilepsie ,there are more carriers in our breed.

i love to know more about all kind of healt things and olso epilepsie .
we have such a small genepool ,one day all those things we dont want will come out if we are not honest about everything.



the smoothcollie ,the biggest friend you can get!!
bye Jolanda


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Post Number: 50
Joined on: 31.08.07
Location: Sweden , Kumla
post link  Posted: 13.04.10 22:24. Title: Mabinogion it was no..


Mabinogion it was no finger pointing!

Maybe you forgot what I told you looong time ago about the epileptic dogs that I knew about?? why take it private, when you are asking here about it in a forum? shouldn't breeder be more open or what? or what do you want to hide is my question?

Some people seems to remember the things they want and nothing more...

And yes, I understand that you think and know lots of things about how I'm thinking, your new honest friends is of course willing to help you with that!


/Jeanette
www.oneways.net
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Post Number: 39
Joined on: 19.10.07
Location: Finland , Jyvaskyla
post link  Posted: 14.04.10 05:23. Title: Nobody knows yet epi..


Nobody knows yet epilepsies inheritance. Possibly there will be more alternatives than just "carrier" or "non carrier". One thing that would be important now, is that breeders wouldn't use lots of the same stud dog especially when he is still young and you don't know what will his offsprig be. Patience is needed, and meanwhile we should use our small genepool as widely as possible.

One of my dogs has recently discovered to have epilepsy, and he is from quite common lines. I don't want to blame his breeder nor his father, I just hope he would be the one and only within their breeding.

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Post Number: 208
Joined on: 13.04.08
Location: Austria , Vienna
post link  Posted: 14.04.10 07:02. Title: acting smooth I th..


acting smooth

I think it is great that you have put that openly on your website.
It surely is difficult to react until we do not know exactly about the genetics of epilepsy and can therefore not even say if a dog suffering from epilepsy got it from the parents or via accident...


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Post Number: 36
Joined on: 24.05.08
Location: Finland , Tampere
post link  Posted: 14.04.10 08:11. Title: If there are epilept..


If there are epileptic dogs in our Smooths' pedigrees and there's always the risk these dogs can be linebred, why can't people just tell their names?



http://allegorysmooths.net/
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Post Number: 4
Joined on: 04.04.10
post link  Posted: 14.04.10 08:35. Title: If the breeders keep..


If the breeders keep the names in secret, I must think that those are unresponsible breeders, who do NOT want to leave those dogs out of breeding. I'm afraid, this is the reason. And it is very very sad...
And what Acting smooth is writing, that not to use a young male often until you realize what he can bring to the breed, here comes pointless, because you will never know what bad things the dog really gives to his offsprings, if there is noone that would tell you the truth.

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Post Number: 152
Joined on: 31.08.07
Location: Nederland , Dordrecht
post link  Posted: 14.04.10 08:37. Title: Mabinogion wrote: ..


Mabinogion wrote:
[quote]`

no ,i dont have something to hide,i just wants to now more for the future when we are looking for new partners for our girls.
and about your last words ......................really not nice of you!


the smoothcollie ,the biggest friend you can get!!
bye Jolanda


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Post Number: 209
Joined on: 13.04.08
Location: Austria , Vienna
post link  Posted: 14.04.10 10:22. Title: Using the same stud..



Using the same stud dogs too often is surely a big problem in the smooth breed...
If you look at males who have had over 30 or up to 70 litters in their life - with the number of smooth litters at all - just start calculating how closely related they will soon all be.... or already are.
I can not understand why these dogs are used so often, even if they are beautyful, when we know about our small genepool already - there would be no need to make the inbreeding matters even worse.

But I am not a breeder yet, so who knows what details I might be mising here...

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Post Number: 99
Joined on: 02.09.07
Location: Norway
post link  Posted: 16.04.10 17:38. Title: I myself am very luc..


I myself am very lucky to have a smooth breeder who is honest and publish the health statistics for her litters on her website, and I'm happy to see that there are a few other breeders who do the same. Hopefully more breeders will find the courage with time and follow their lead. What would have been perfect was if there were some kind of central health registry where puppy buyers and breeders could report cases of genetic diseases. But as long as not everyone dares to be honest it would never fulfil its purpose to the full...

Honest requires bravery, but also respect for each other: If breeders start blaming each other then very few people will want to be honest. Honesty will only work effectively if we manage to work together and not against each other. If searching thoroughly all breeders will find some sick individual(s) behind their lines, so we're all in the same boat so to speak.

I also do not think it is possible to avoid lines with cases of epilepsy alltogether; there simply wouldn't be enough breeding material left on which to breed. So the purpose of finding out which dogs in which lines has epilepsy is not to ban these lines for breeding but to choose wisely how to combine the different lines so that the risk for doubling genes for epilepsy is kept as low as possible.

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Post Number: 212
Joined on: 13.04.08
Location: Austria , Vienna
post link  Posted: 16.04.10 23:01. Title: Alertness Very wel..


Alertness

Very well said I think

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