Posted: 17.05.09 10:02. Title: Mistakes in the smooth breed standard

Smooth Collie Standard
"Appears as gifted with intelligence, alertness and activity. Stands with dignity governed by perfect anatomical formation, with no part out of proportion to whole, giving appearance of working ability."
In France, "giving appearance of working ability" has been completely missed from their translation of the FCI standard. In Belgium, it is claimed that the rough and smooth standards are identical.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/132
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/133
Please check the standards as issued by the British Kennel Club with those issued in your country and report if they are translated correctly or incorrectly. I think this is very important - there are five differences between the rough and smooth collie standards - the key one is "giving appearance of working ability" and may have helped the smooth to remain a more rustic and less fearful dog who moves well.

 Posted: 10.06.09 19:16. Title: I agree with the art..

I agree with the articles you posted...

As for the 2009 crufts rough and smooth winners on Youtube.

The Rough looked like it would rather be somewhere else. It basically looked like what my handlers call a "gag and drag".. the dog was basically being drug around the ring by the handler LOL

As for the smooth.. you could see the smooth in the background while the rough was being examined hands on by the judge. The smooth looked terrified! At 22 seconds into the video the smooth cowered to the ground... tail tucked. When they first showed the smooth right before the judge went over it, it seemed to be showing pretty well... but when the dog was gaited in the ring, it moved terribly, it looked like he was trying to move as fast as he could just to get out of there. Something scared the dog in the ring and he was very nervous to be there!...

 Posted: 10.06.09 23:51. Title: Smooths in the past and the present

Hi Dianne,
I realize that your subject has become wider as every day passes by, and I haven't been here for some time. I would like to focus on the smooths, I'm far too upset when it comes to the roughs transformation ower the last three decades, so in order to keep my blood pressure on a resonable level - I will stick to what I think I know a little more, and write about my my personal opinions on what I think is happening with the smooths...

Yes, I have the "champion parade book" and I have read Mrs Combe's books, and we have been in contact a few times ower the years regarding the linguistic interpretation of the meaning of "Collie" and the resurch of the Gaelic word for "useful" (but that's another story) - and I am so sad that she she is no longer with us.

I hope I've got quite a good idea of the smooths history, the geneology and the known documents written on the subjects. I'm not so sure that all things said about the origin and the breeding of smooths, ideas taken for granted and even passed on in books and traded from one generation to another is always correct, but nevertheless - interesting reading. If you e.g. consider the by now well known cluster four group with various hearding dogs, based on morphological DNA-sampling, (2004) it provides us with a great more information than we had only ten years ago, don't you agree?

I think that when it comes to the origin of the smooth collie and the relations with other collie types mentioned in 19th century documents the most obvious point is that there were a number of various types of hearding dogs long before then, developing into the at least ten documented collie types - known long before the standard collie breeds we know of today. (among them the ban dog and the cur). Since many of the Celts in Wales, on Ireland and in Scotland kept hearding dogs of these types, all with various lenght of coat and colour I believe that this is the pre-origin of theese at least ten collietypes, as is aslo the origin of the non-official colliebreeds today as the Welsh sheepdog, old farm collie, the working keplie (kelpie collies), the Australian koolie (originated from a smooth blue merle bitch exported 1874) etc. I'm quite an optimist - I think that future gene technology will provide even more information on the development of the collie.

As when you talk about Scandinavian smooths as "one type", my personal opinion is that there have been more than "two types" of smooths in Britain since WW II. All this because of the few remaining smooth collies, and depending on the roughs used as stud dogs. (As you probobly know Birgit and Trevor also went to America for new blood.) The very elegant smooths and the more bony smooth have always existed - along with the types in between (many of the most important dogs). We share the same interest in old images and photos, and it is clear that the size of collies have varied a lot - ewen ower time.

I can't say that I have seen all smooth from 1970 up til today, but I have had the pleasure of seeing some of the most well known dogs in Britain since 1978 and many of the British smooth imported to Scandinavia ower the last three decades, i.e. the forefathers of today's smooths in Sweden and Finland. Many different types, elegant and bony, trends coming and going, very small bitches, really heavy males - also realyy heavy bitches and extremely elegant males too. Many smooths have been imported, and from various blood lines, combined into and having produced a variety of types - this is my conclusion.

I agree with the opinion about some smooths appearing and shown more or less like sighthounds, whippets or even basenjis. I must admit to being a little worried that the development of the breed is taking such a gigantic step towards becoming a super elegant show dog - (only?) and again, I reapeat my concern about the fact that judges are so keen to follow this trend. In addition to what I wrote before - why even bother judging a breed if you "don't like smooths"? I know for sure that this breed is of a great working kind, built for a good days work on the field, with good stamina, strength and with a bold and social personality. These are the reasons why I have kept smooths all these years.

I am not a judge and I am not a breeder, so perhaps I shouldn't even speak my mind?! But I am devoted to the smooths and I have been so since the late 70's. I hope that it's ok that I share my thoughts :) and I hope I haven't ofended any one, at least it is not my intention.

(My comment on the YouTube-clip: Once again, please put a nice presentation on YouTube of a correctly and nicely handled smooth (shown on a loose string) moved in correct gait and having that very special appeareance that we like to see:fun - it would be lovely to watch.)

Kind regards, Sanna

I'm not sure I have been perfectly clear, it's nearly 1.30 in the morning...ZZZ

Nick & Ann,
Your interest in visiting a show in Scandinavia is noted - and you are always very welcome :)

 Posted: 11.06.09 15:16. Title: Dianne wrote: All t..

Dianne wrote:

quote:

All that said, I have been rethinking ideas that I held and things that I have said, as I think more about the subject of the collie and its standard. There were the two smooth silhouettes on this site http://myrnash0.tripod.com/colliesnetivhaayit/id68.html that showed two rather different models coming from different epoques. If you look back on the smooth collie champion gallery http://foxearthcollies.co.uk/champions_gallery/ or if you have the book, Smooth Collie Champions, 1884 to 2002, you will see that there have always been two types of collie - a finer boned and lighter model and a model with more bone. In the two silhouettes, the model from the 1970s seems to be a heavier coated dog and is probably the result of a rough smooth mating or a rough factored dog.

Again, just my opinion, but the silhouette you say appears to be a heavier coated dog, could just be a larger heavier built dog with more bone and substance.. has nothing to do with a dog from a rough x smooth breeding, he could just have more bone and substance.


I know I have posted this picture before, but this dog is from a smooth x smooth breeding, his mother is a proven pure for smooth bitch.



Dianne wrote:

quote:

I am not sure that it has ever been proved that the rough and smooth have always been bred together - there are various theories - one saying that rough and smooth were born in the same litter, another saying that the smooth is descended from the cur dog and bandog (smooth dogs as I understand it) and was always selected for the droving of sheep and cattle to market rather than the herding of sheep.

From this website: Collie Breed History it says:

"One ot the earliest Collies of note was a dog named
"Old Cockie", (also called "Cockie Boy") born in 1868, and
said to be the first known sable and white (or brown and white) coloured Collie. This dog was highly lauded for his endearing expression and fine head detail. He was among the first
"herding breed" dogs to be shown in England., at the Birmingham National Dog Show in 1870. Old Cockie was
the sire of Maude, who was bred to Trefoil to produce a dog named Ch Charlamagne. Born in 1879, Charlamagne became the grandsire to Ch Metchley Wonder, a top winning Collie
who was purchased for such a high price that the sale made headlines. His son, Ch Christopher, born in 1887, was bred extensively in Britain before being exported to the U.S. All Collies today are descended from Ch. Christopher.

A point of interest here is that the mother of Ch Christopher's great grandsire, Scott, was a Smooth Collie by the name of "Ch Waite". She was the very first Smooth Collie champion, and thru Ch. Christopher, is an ancestor of all Collies today. Thus there exist no Rough Collie lines in which Smooth Collies
do not appear."



Dianne wrote:

quote:

According to Iris Combe, (who gives a very detailed history of herding dogs in general and the smooth collie in particular), in her book, The Smooth Collie, a Family Dog, 1992, there have been two periods in collie history when rough and smooth were mated together. The first was when smooths first began to be shown - they had a greyhoundy look and so were mated with roughs to eliminate this trait - to give them substance. She says that the first collie club for smooths was founded, in 1955, by a very small group of enthusiasts who felt "that this ancient type of herding dog, which all agreed came from a different ancestral tree than the Rough, albeit they had been interbred for some considerable time, should be recognised as a separate breed with its own standard."

That's interesting because The Collie Club of America Inc. was organized in 1886, two years after the establishment of the American Kennel Club, and was the second breed parent club to join the AKC. While smooths were obviously not as common as roughs, they were certainly around back then.

 Posted: 14.06.09 13:12. Title: Diane Thank you for..

Diane

Thank you for the cruft's clips. Watched the breed but were heading back to Spain when the group was on so it is the first time i have seen it.
Neith BOB would personally be MY choice. I find it worrying when the best out of 200 Rough's has to be a puppy, although I am friends with the owners and sooo please for them. For me he was a little short all over and although moved well enough did not have much drive and was dragged a touch.
I agree the smooth looked edgey and although moved at a good pace was not flowing and looked a little weak on the elbows?

I agree also the there has always been two types of Smooth in the UK. I have and old photo of a very fine Smooth with the wording.
"Greyhound type highly undesirable".

Sanna

What time of year is the best Collie club show in Sweden?

Nick

 Posted: 14.06.09 14:39. Title: Hi Nick, The Swedish..

Hi Nick,
The Swedish Collie club has an annual main championship show during the summer, (along with several other CC-shows during the summertime) and usually there are quite a number of smooths entries. I suppose the largest number of smooths shown at the same time at one show would still be the Stockholm X-mas show in December (The Swedish Kennel club - Int. championship show). At this show smooths from all Scandinavian (and sometimes European) countries are entered. Smooth of various types (still holding on to my idea that there are more than one heavy and one light variety of smooth :) will be presented.

This year the main Collie club show is set in the Northern part of Sweden, which may reduce the number of entries, because even though Sweden is a small country, it is considered very far north. (the location is Piteе.) The main collie club shows, when set more centralized in Sweden, has statistically resulted in a higher number of competitors.

Kind regards Sanna

 Posted: 15.06.09 18:43. Title: I warmly would like ..

I warmly would like to invite you all to Speciality Show to Finland on August the 2nd. There will be almost about 60 -100 smooths in the show. Our other Speciality Show in May gathered 113 smooths alltogether. That was something we have ever seen before

 Posted: 08.04.20 18:02. Title: Hleatherjackets

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About the standards - I think that the main difference you have hardly mentioned and that is the one of the phrase "giving appearance of working ability". The rough is not required to have attributes which would make him capable of a hard day's work and to many people's minds, this has been his downfall in Europe - why does he move badly - why is he fearful? Where is his motivation and drive?
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